Can an Egress Stair Go Down Then Up Again?
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Source: https://archinect.com/forum/thread/102366/egress-stair-is-a-grand-stair-in-the-lobby-qualifed-as-a-means-of-egress
I've e'er been told that if you lot enclose the anteroom with an appropriately fire-rated enclosure then yous can employ it equally an egress.
if the grand stair is open up and so no, it cannot be a means of egress...
the stair itself needs to be in a continuous burn down rated enclosure, in which case you lot can usually make employ of an exception to be immune to have ane of your means of egress discharge at class level into the entrance hall, equally long equally yous accept a 2d stair that discharges through a continuous burn rated enclosure to the outside of the building at form... in order to take ane of your means of egress exit through the lobby, it needs to exist fully sprinklered and y'all need a continuous fire rated separation between the vestibule and any level beneath it...
bRink is correct, i believe.
If this question comes up on the licensing exam, by the way, only put in 2 fully enclosed stairs at totally opposite ends of the edifice PLUS the antechamber stair. There's no room for nuanced lawmaking interpretations on the examination.
Donna- I once designed a private school exactly equally you are proverb. However, there was the question about liability considering fifty-fifty though you lot had two means of egress sedate from the 1000 stair, you how do you lot prevent people from using it during an emergency? If someone trips and falls, the school can get sued.
agreed... bRink is right... i've worked on a recreation eye with this exact circumstance, although the building was quite a bit larger than the i in question hither... essentially whatsoever open, monumental stair is not-existent as far as code is concerned...
it may be possible if the antechamber is fully enclosed, but it would probably but be cheaper to throw in a standard, cheap fire stair...
bRink and others:
Only want to clarify, so you hateful my friend tin do it as long as the lobby is fully sprinkled and there is a continuous burn down rated separation between lobby and one level beneath information technology( basement?)?
Does he need to put a fire rated separation between lobby and second floor?
I checked NFPA101 v2009, in chapter 7(means of egress) and chapter 12(new assembly occupies). None tells me there is an exception to let a m stair to be qualified as an ways of egress stair. Could anyone double bank check it with me?
I believe NFPA is precede than IBC, then I use NFPA current version.
November 9, 10 10:09 am ·
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No, the IBC says that exit stairs must be in a burn down rated enclosure and discharge to the exterior at course.
Exceptions:
1. Upwardly to l% of your required egress width can exit through a space (your lobby) at grade if that space is fully sprinklered and burn separated from the level beneath...
2. If you had a corridor that maintains a continuous fire separation from the stair to outside- needs to maintain at minimum the same fire rating as the stair, that works every bit well... If you accept a monumental stair that is open, the IBC does not expressly let for that as an egress...
Nov 9, ten xi:03 am ·
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Also in that location is an exception where you lot tin accept the stair leave through a vestibule just in that location are dimensional limits to that I believe...
Nov 9, 10 11:05 am ·
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You should actually run into what jurisdiction you are in and review the code specific to the jurisdiction... Although the purpose of the IBC is to establish a safety standard, nearly jurisdictions I've worked on use the IBC or something based on the IBC...
Nov nine, x 11:16 am ·
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bRink:
I still don't quite get it. I besides checked IBC too, as it noted in Exceptions, it seems IBC can allow my freind to design like that, just NFPA doesn't think it is legal.
To be short, includes all the exceptions, who is correct? Me or my friend?
Nov 9, x eleven:18 am ·
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Is the stair in a burn down rated enclosure? In other words, does it have rated walls enclosing it? If so, it can get out through a lobby if that lobby is sprnklered and separated from below.
If the stair is not in a burn down rated enclosure, if it is like a monumental open stair, it isn't counted by IBC as an egress stair... That is how I empathize information technology, although I would read the lawmaking, don't trust a agglomeration of people on an Internet forum! ;-)
November 9, 10 11:25 am ·
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Here'southward one I saw the other day that had me scratching my head:
ii story mostly A3 building (9000 SF beginning floor, 5000 2d), i burn down stair, one non-egress monumental stair, and a 2d floor exit on to a not-combustible (but open) pedestrian bridge not at grade.
I proceed meaning to dig through and see if at that place'due south any way the pedestrian bridge could exist counted as a ways of egress. I dubiety it, just anyone want to chime in?
Humorously enough, if there was a critical state of affairs that required evacuation of the building... more than likely anybody will run to the grand staircase anyways every bit it is the biggest and most important psychologically.
Funny how this works out, no?
bRink: Thank you for your description.
OldFogey: That is a good and direct reply, thanks. Do you observe they mention it a 2-story building? Based on 2006 IBC, If a building with i story on the basis and ane basement, the exception doesn't apply.
of form, this MAKEs sense. The basement requires stricter burn go out than the rooms on the ground.
Unicorn Ghost: I have aforementioned feeling too. Just if there is fume, people should run to the egress stair with Big blood-red Leave on the top.
manamana: I think information technology doesn't employ to the code. But I would like to listen to others.
OldFogey: Did you check IBC 2009 Department 1016.1? I was told the exceptions are at that place.
I am wrapping up working on a project in NYC where the ornamental staircase was non eligible to be an egress stair. This edifice was sixty stories, and that is obviously dissimilar than your friends 2 story community center. But, I believe there has to be fire separation for a stair to be considered an egress stair.
The condition described past ARCHNME is however permitted for two story buildings with low hazard occupancies under 1020 and Chapter vii of the IBC/CBC. No time to discover the precise code section right now, but you'll need to read all the exceptions under the department on Vertical Go out Enclosures.
2006 IBC 1020.1 exception viii. we don't exercise 1009 IBC yet. For now, but one stair should need to exist enclosed as long every bit merely 2 are required. Of course your local authority having jurisdiction can interpret that all the same they choose.
non to be an ass, but how hard is information technology to pull out your ibc (or locally applicable lawmaking) and check the requirement? i don't know what the reply is off the top of my head, but i know how to look upwardly the reply. by and large, building codes are pretty damn explicit, and this doesn't sound like an issue that would be up for much debate. let's attempt to be a little self-sufficient here.
Hither is IBC. Information technology says OK to take the grand stair in the lobby equally a ways of egress. Equally I posted previously, NFPA101 doesn't permit this to happen:
In IBC 2009, there is requirements for vertical go out enclosure:
1020.1 Enclosures required. Interior exit stairways and interior exit ramps shall be enclosed with burn barriers synthetic in accordance with Section 706 or horizontal assemblies synthetic in accord with Section 711, or both. Leave enclosures shall have a fire-resistance rating of not less than two hours where connecting four stories or more and non less than 1 hr where connecting less than four stories. The number of stories connected past the get out enclosure shall include whatsoever basements only not any mezzanines. An exit enclosure shall non be used for any purpose other than ways of egress.
Exceptions:
8. In other than Group H and I occupancies, a maximum of 50 percent of egress stairways serving one next floor are non required to be enclosed, provided at to the lowest degree 2 means of egress are provided from both floors served by the unenclosed stairways. Any two such interconnected floors shall not be open to other floors. Unenclosed exit stairways shall exist remotely located as required in Section 1015.2.
ix. In other than Grouping H and I occupancies, interior egress stairways serving simply the first and second stories of a building equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 are not required to be enclosed, provided at least ii means of egress are provided from both floors served past the unenclosed stairways. Such interconnected stories shall not be open up to other stories. Unenclosed exit stairways shall exist remotely located as required in Section 1015.two.
Glad to see y'all got to the key provision - 2 story buildings are immune to have unenclosed stairs if sprinklered.
Nov 9, x 10:47 pm ·
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I stand corrected... Two storey building... Is that true of IBC 2009 as well?
Good discussion by the fashion, nosotros should exercise more than of this kind of thing on archinect...
Nov ix, ten 11:14 pm ·
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Will expect information technology up afterward... Past the way, anybody know where you can download a PDF copy of the IBC to a mobile device? I know at that place are torrents, only whatever site that is accessible from a smart phone?
Nov nine, 10 xi:35 pm ·
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manamana: Nice! That's an awesome link!
Going to add a couple building lawmaking editions to the iBooks and bookmark this one for sure!
Nov 10, 10 4:47 am ·
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Too you tin can find a few code books hither:
I also hold about having these discussions on archinect, they are incredibly helpful.
A forum about edifice codes tin be found hither, with good info:
November x, 10 1:20 pm ·
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Your jurisdiction decides which code supercedes which code....
In general if your city says IBC without revisions and then go past that fifty-fifty if NFPA is referenced., considering most likely the examiner is using what the city says to utilise.
AND IF ITS QUESTIONABLE, Greyness, OPEN TO INTERPRETATION FILE THE DAMN THING ALREADY... Quit dicking around burning up the fee discussing something that can exist answered with a simple filing, and then what if you lot objections, you may not who knows, yous don't..
Nov 10, 10 7:29 pm ·
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Or but communicate with the city...
November ten, x 9:44 pm ·
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I know this is an old post, merely ArchNRE'due south comments re. the IBC 2009 seem wrong. 2009 has removed the exception. also information technology'southward located in department 1022.1, not 1020... Read the code!
April 8, 13 11:04 am ·
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Opening this up nevertheless again, since this is a tiptop google result when looking for this trouble...
IBC 2009 does all the same permit an open stair. Terms have been redefined and things rearranged. Open stairs are "exit access stairways" per 1016, exceptions iii & four. Exit access stairways tin be counted as an exit per 1021, exception 3.
Very helpful article to explicate this is here: http://safetymatters.aonfpe.com/2012/Volume-1/code.aspx
Moberlin, and Al Godwin (author of the article on Exit Access Stairs. It is crawly that I finally sympathise - now the how to become open stairs vs an atrium loop for travel distance for a concern use to egress from the second story (sprinkler) space/building at 300 ft vs the loop of thinking information technology was an atrium which limited me to 200 ft.
thank you cheers !
I could not figure out how the ICC 2009 commentary was stating that we could accept four open stairs per 1016 exception 4. (because I could non go past the atrium looping in the lawmaking research).. issues between High-rising/multi story and "two story" buildings exiting safety.
http://safetymatters.aonfpe.com/2012/Volume-one/lawmaking.aspx
and the term "go out access Stair" thank you for defining the terminology!!!! and the in English not lawmaking speak of the real world utilize.
These discussions are much appreciated, fifty-fifty if you have to read all the comments to understand the path traveled to the conclusion.
Another important function of this connection LOOP is
Number of exits and Continuity department 1021.i
exception No. iii which permits you to use exception 3 or 4 of 1016.1
( I am guessing that "4" is the maximum number in the 2009 commentary - because of the table 1021.1, but I take non found why the commentary says up to 4 open stairs; referneced tabular array says minimum so the myth still remains.)
Jun 18, xiv 9:44 am ·
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Late to the give-and-take, by a few years, but in case someone ever reads this, every bit the second floor is 3000sqft, information technology technically qualifies as a mezzanine and not an additional floor. Y'all don't need a rated interior stair between a main floor and a mezzanine.
Aug 31, 16 ix:50 am ·
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No, it doesn't qualify as a mezzanine.
A mezzanine can be no greater than 1/3, 1/ii, or 2/3 of the floor area of the space in which they're located. All depends on which exceptions you can apply.
Mezzanines are also required to exist open to the area they are continued to. Again in that location are exceptions.
Y'all cannot merely label any random infinite as a mezzanine. Some building officials allow it, but they're not correct.
Aug 31, 16 10:37 am ·
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I'd like to revive this thread. I'm currently working on several 2 story small office buildings (B occupancy) with less than 29 occupants per floor. I'chiliad using IBC 2015 with the Massachusetts amendments.
I believe that I can provide ane strategically located exit admission stair (open up stair) equally the sole ways of egress off the 2nd floor, however, I'one thousand thrown for a loop for accessibility requirements of 1009.
1009 states that
one) All required means of egress must be attainable
2) Accessible mean of egress must be accessed or integrate an area of refuge.
Doesn't this exclude open stairs (exit admission stairs) from the means of egress system completely because they aren't enclosed and therefore tin can't accept an surface area of refuge(?)
1009.three Excep iv and v might be relevant. Stupid question hither: is your edifice sprinklered?
He needs 2 enclosed leave stair for such a large area.
No sprinkler, no elevator. In MA, appears that "accessibility" is not required for "private" facilities. I'm confirming with the state lath, so it may mean that in these kind of buildings in MA we tin can ignore these issues. Still, what if this hypothetical edifice was in another state? My base of operations question still remains:
1) if an open "go out admission stair" tin can count as an exit
Only
2) every required exit must be accessible AND take an surface area of refuge
It means that yous can't do an open up stair ever, right? I have to be misunderstanding the code, because information technology'southward not making sense to me.
Role of your trouble, and ours actually, is what is the length of the common path of egress travel? That tin can't exceed 75'. Wait at 1006.iii
We "enclosed" a historic grand spiral stair serving as egress in a fraternity house. I won't go through all the exceptions and lawmaking (GA) but the enclosure just had to be smoke. Existing dimensions for the screw stair and landing/door egress widths, etc were thankfully all to code. The owner wasn't immediately on board with the new doors on 1st floor, but information technology seemed "low-hanging fruit" to make lawmaking work.
Your AHJ may have a different opinion; we worked closely with our city edifice official and fire marshal to show improvement on what otherwise was a non-compliant building. Amongst other things, Assembly infinite on the third floor of a blazon 5B residential building for their fraternity meetings... code was not happy.
I think you lot're misreading 1009.3: "...shall either incorporate an area of refuge within an enlarged floor-level landing or shall exist accessed from an expanse of refuge complying with Department 1009.6. [Emphasis added]"
The bespeak of an area of refuge is to have plenty space for a disabled person to wait at the acme without blocking the able-bodied people getting out. If the Code allows the stairway to be unenclosed, then the area of refuge can also exist unenclosed, as long as the required flooring area is provided.
I do see that, simply an expanse of refuge needs to be enclosed, per 1009.vi.4, right? So I tin can do the open stair, just then I need to put a little protected area of refuge cupboard adjacent to it? This closet would need the 2-way advice besides? That's a tough sell to a customer when the level can't ever have a wheelchair on it considering no elevator.
Nope, it says " OR ...complying with Section 1009.six."
regarding original post... 1019.iii.one of 2015 IBC would let that open stair.... assuming it is 2 story building, within the total exit travel limitation, and not an I2 or I3 Occupancy